Finally.....

Classic short-frame models

Finally.....

Postby Zaemo » Thu May 28, 2015 8:05 pm

Well, I don't have any great pictures yet but I finally have my bike. It's a 64 XLCH with 63 paint. There's been ups and downs but it's in my garage. I have gone over some small details I didn't like and I've started changing some hardware after a visit to Old Dude who fortunately is not very far from me. I've had to fix a couple things and having had the bike for only a few days before heading out of the country, I have some things to think about.
I am getting a kickstand and tach drive gear and a couple other bits for the bike that weren't in yet when I picked it up. The major problem is the cold start right now. I'm not sure why yet. It makes me want to get a Morris Magneto but I hate to lose the tach setup with the F-M Mag. The Kicker arm won't cinch up tight so I'm trying to find one that will. I also want to try the round kick pedal, I'm bidding on an arm and pedal on eBay.
I've tried various kick styles and start procedures. I'm manually retarding the mag. Going full choke and just cracking the throttle. Tried kicking on 1st compression and tried kicking on the second compression. Something is not where it should be. I'll have to check the timing first and then move on from there to another carb maybe. Also, it seemed that there was so much oil on the air filter element that I'm not sure the thing could breathe. I also kicked for 45 minutes before checking the plugs which were gapped at .040 instead of .020 for a mag. IT has Taylor Silicone wires which I believe are the magneto type wires. Still, I feel like going to solid core wires.
Has anyone gone directly from a F-M Magneto to a Morris Magneto and what were your thoughts? Was it worth it?

Z
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Re: Finally.....

Postby hennesse » Fri May 29, 2015 12:16 am

Zaemo,

Congratulations - you're now in the wind with an classic Sportster - that is, when you can get it starting reliably. Magneto Sportsters start pretty easily when the magneto is working correctly and the operator is working correctly (using the correct starting procedure). But if either one ain't doing his job...

Making sure the magneto is working correctly is the first thing. Intermittently, my 1962 XLCH wouldn't start, and I thought the problem was me - I hadn't discovered the "magic" starting procedure. So I continued to hone my technique, and the bike would start reliably, except, of course, at the worst possible opportunity, where it wouldn't start at all - or I had to find a 600 lb gorilla (like some of my AMCA chapter buddies) to kick it with all their considerable might.

Ultimately, I found that the magneto's coil was intermittent. How I found this out was accidental. To test the magneto, you need to take the spark plugs out, (firmly!) ground them against the cylinder heads, and kick. You should get a nice hot spark every kick. The big problem is - how to ground them firmly? I tried to get my wife to help me, but after one high-voltage shock, marital relations were suspended for awhile. What really is needed is a steel plate with two 14mm holes drilled in it, and a big alligator or crocodile clip to clamp it to something grounded - so you can kick from the other side of the motorcycle and still view what the spark plugs are doing. Any enthusiasts out there with a Bridgeport mill? Alternatively, you can get a buddy (who has not much else to do, and is impervious to electrical shocks) to help you.

It took some determined testing - do I get a hot spark every time? What is the slowest kick which will produce a hot spark? I was getting anomalous results! Most of the time, I got a hot spark. But some of the time, I got NO spark at all. WTF? Could this be the problem?

I disassembled my mag, and sent my rotor out to AEI (see, Techical: Magnetos) to get re-magnetized. I didn't think that was the problem, but for $5, I'll take that bet. Didn't do squat. Eventually, I got the bright idea of swapping the coil out of another F-M mag I've got, and dang! the bike starts RELIABLY down to about 40 degreesF. AEI has replacement coils in the $200-some range. I need to buy one for my spare mag, but haven't done so yet.

So do some fastidious testing of your F-M mag before ponying up the big bucks for a Morris mag. Morris mags are good - they're done some pretty good work re-engineering these mags - but they are big $$$.

The 1957 Rider's Handbook (available from your Harley dealer - Part# 99414-93) "1950-1957 Operations / Maintenance / Parts Listing / Specifications" gives the general starting procedure. Each individual bike varies a little bit. But once you know that the mag is operating correctly, your starting procedure should be pretty close to that given in the Handbook.

Dave
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Re: Finally.....

Postby Zaemo » Sat May 30, 2015 5:44 pm

Dave,
I get what you're saying. I kicked that bike over and over. I took short breaks and went at it again. Out of nowhere it would fire without me really changing anything. Did I eventually clear a flooded motor? I don't know. I have a pen like device with a clear window that shows spark when held to the plug wire for testing but I like the idea of actually looking at the spark at the gap however as there would be no question. I'm going to lose the silicon wires as I just read again somewhere that they don't work well.

I guess starting with the Mag is as good a place as any. Grateful for the "Technical" part of this website, Dave, more now having been through the Magneto information and the AEI website.

I wonder if I should just send my mag to Morris and have them install their retard/advance cap after going through the mag or should I do that myself? This mag was supposed to have been gone through but it was sent back a second time for another look. That doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling.

I'm going to time it initially according to my 1959-1969 Sportster Service Manual and do a final timing with a timing light as recommended.

If I go with a Morris Impulse Mag, then I would have to sell my F-M mag and Tach anyway so it wouldn't result in that much of an outlay in cash if that's a sensible upgrade.

Anyone dealt with the "ABC Gang" in Florida? I see they just put up a F-M Mag and they have a rebuilt DC-12 carb on eBay. Can anyone recommend?
I guess I'll keep updating here as the mysteries unravel. Who knows, I may have to reverse the polarity of my foot.
Thanks,
Chad
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Re: Finally.....

Postby hennesse » Sun May 31, 2015 11:56 pm

Chad,

Re-reading your posts - you say air filter plugged up, silicone wires, spark plugs gapped incorrectly... Sounds like this bike got thrown together at the last minute. I think you need to go through the magneto and carburator yourself.

You want solid core wires. The modern "silicone" wires introduce a resistance to minimize RFI (Radio Frequency Interference). They have a fiberglass core with some carbon fiber and then conductive silicone applied. When we kick start these bikes, we are turning the mag barely above the speed where it starts to produce spark, so resistance in the wires is our enemy. Same thing for resistor-type spark plugs. The guy next to you at the traffic light may complain about static on his radio, but who cares?

You didn't say anything about the magneto points and condenser. Take a close look at the condition of the points. I'd recommend getting points and condenser from AEI - I had problems with points I got from another source - they started pitting almost immediately. I've also had problems with points for old tractors - seems like all the points these days are coming from China, and sometimes you get good ones, sometimes not. One set I got for my 1954 Ford tractor pitted and burned in two weeks. I got a set from another auto parts store, and they've lasted two years and are still going strong.

The points need to be gapped at .015 on the high point of the small (front) lobe. The gap inevitably changes as you tighten down the screws, so it will take several attempts to get them dead on at .015, but that's what it must be. There's no "close enough" here.

Timing needs to be done as described in the service manual. It's easier if you can tie down the bike, and raise the rear wheel with a floor jack. Put the bike in gear and turn the rear wheel - in the direction that it goes when going forward - to turn the engine. It's really hard to turn the engine small amounts by hand-moving the kickstarter.

The service manual describes using a "timing light" which is simply a battery and a light bulb - not the stroboscopic light we used to use on our Chevy 283s and 327s. The book tells you to disconnect the coil wire from the points before doing this, and it's important because hooking a battery to the mag can damage the coil.

You should have a fixed magneto on a '64. Set the timing and cinch down the magneto - don't move it around. Yeah, it's a little harder to kick it with the timing advanced, but at least you know it's in the right place. If the points and timing are correct, you shouldn't have any problem with kick-back.

You probably want to check the setting of the idle and high speed jets, and the float level in the carburator. You won't know if they were set right until you check 'em yourself.

You mentioned kicking for 45 minutes. WRONG! The cold start procedure is: choke closed, throttle 1/4 open, kill button pressed, two kicks to prime. Then choke open 1/4 to 1/2, throttle barely open, kill button released, "start engine with vigorous strokes". If it hasn't started by 8 kicks, it's time to take a break. Open choke and throttle completely, hold kill button and kick a couple times to clear the cylinders. Take a break. Then begin the procedure all over again. Your first kick is the strongest - after 8 kicks, they're already weaker. Think of the XLCH as a 16d nail. You can hit that nail with a tack hammer until the cows come home, but it ain't going anywhere. But give it a couple good whacks with a 28oz framing hammer, and it's driven home.

Let us know about your progress.
Dave
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Re: Finally.....

Postby 55khkjoe » Mon Jun 01, 2015 7:01 pm

Like Dave says, you must have timing mark in center if hole to static time it like the book says. I invested in one of the Morris retard caps for my 59 XLCH fixed mag. Love it, no more kick back. I have found on the DC carb not to prime it, loads cylinders up. I can leave the bike sit for a week, set the retard on the cap, full choke till it spits (about 3 kicks), set to one notch on choke and kick ( usually once) fires right up. The only thing I didn't like was their instructions on point gap (.20) didn't work on fixed mag. Got to set them at .15. Also to set up best, put front screw in to set the retard arm at full advance with cap off and remember unhook the coil and condenser wire be fore battery hook up for static time. Its a simple piece of engineering, but they thought of it.
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Re: Finally.....

Postby Zaemo » Tue Jun 02, 2015 9:09 am

Thanks, Joe. I'm going to give that cap a try. I'm going to try to change my technique when I get back stateside as it seems I may not me choking the carb enough. I appreciate your input.

Chad
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