Update on my 64

Classic short-frame models

Update on my 64

Postby Zaemo » Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:27 pm

A couple of you may know from another forum but I thought I would update the 64 saga here too since everyone is so helpful. I had sent my cases out for welding and decided to assemble the motor myself. Having never done it, there were a few mysterious things like the proper case sealant and the cam shim debates and small details like having no idea what the trans should feel like or look like for that matter and trying to eliminate the kicker slip.

I am happy to report that after taking my time, I turned the petcock, got a cough on the 4th or 5th kick, went to half choke and started the bike. Just like downtown as my dad would say. I have fought a bit with the Morris retarding cap but I will time it with a light when my clear plug arrives. The .019 they suggest just wouldn't work for the points.
I am using a inductive mag timer which is nice in that you don't have to take the carb off again to check your position.

I bought a DC-12 from the ABC Gang guys even after opening my carb up and cleaning it well. I am now going to try to start dialing in the tuning and trying different spark plugs I have. It's been rainy here and busy family stuff but I did run it up the slick road quickly yesterday. All was good until I swung a long corner and the bike bogged and quit. I think this was a low fuel problem, so an easy fix! I filled it with fresh gas and I'm headed out to the shop to give it a whirl. I need to figure out how rich I can go on the idle screw and double check that I don't have any manifold leaks.

On the subject of of the petcock, should the RESERVE handle be at the front or rear of the bike? Mine faces forward.

I'll post some pictures when I get the bike looking nice.

Thanks everyone,

Chad
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Re: Update on my 64

Postby 55khkjoe » Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:36 pm

Zaemo, I have found setting the points at 15 on the retard cap setup really works well. With the 19 it is hard to time, I think the points do not totally close all the time. Also static time it, it might be slightly retarded like this but will start by third or fourth kick. Slightly retarded saves the kicking and you only lose a little on the top end. But its a K, not much top end to begin with.
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Re: Update on my 64

Postby Zaemo » Thu Nov 05, 2015 2:03 am

Joe,
I may play with the points gap and try .015 and .016 just to see. I started out static timed but advanced it slightly to improve starting. You're right, though it seems retarded that way. I'm still going to try a strobe on it to see what the difference between the two is.
I've gotten the bike to idle around 1000-1100 and working on the enrichment settings and restarting. It seems too hard to restart when it's warm.

Z
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Re: Update on my 64

Postby Zaemo » Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:26 pm

Lots of developments here.

Joe, I ended up removing the retarding cap as it was adding another layer of unknown. I was having trouble with resarting the bike when warm and it wasn't necessarily cold starting well either.

The idle wouldn't smooth out so I got some better manifold clamps and situated the manifold much better between the jugs. I also broke down the carb, worked on the mating surfaces etc and reassembled it. Even though I could not get the engine to respond to any propane gas leak test before this, the starting and idling manners improved vastly. I have been playing with the timing and trying different plug gaps for tuning. It's very interesting how differently it responds. Every time I make improvements I can notice it now that I've finally been able to ride the thing.

I have the case apart right now for some kicker work but hope to be running by the warm weekend ahead!

Z
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Re: Update on my 64

Postby sportsterpaul » Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:38 am

....proper case sealant and the cam shim debates and small details like having no idea what the trans should feel like or look like for that matter and trying to eliminate the kicker slip.


I am a Yamabond 4 man. Nasty stuff, but never leaked on me. I shim the cams way looser than 0.005, other than the 2nd cam on a cone motor. That I do that pretty tight since it might help to not eat ignition flyweights. For the tranny, you gotta have the factory book. Assemble dry, slap it in, no need to put rollers in the mainshaft right side yet. Grab the mainshaft at the tranny sprocket, pull and push. It must at least go "tink". If it goes "thunk" that is too loose. If you can't spin it it is waaay too tight. (Same for cam endplay.) Note that you can set up dry clutch models tighter. When you apply the clutch on a dry clutch setup, it pushes the clutch gear/basket/bearing away from the mainshaft. On wet clutch bikes a little more free play is better, since applying the clutch will close up the free play. It depends how loose the big tranny bearing is to the snap rings.

For the countershaft, use a dental tool or bent spoke. I used to do the whole dial indicator hassle for these two free-plays and the camshafts, but now have it down to just wiggle and feel.

The absolute best trick for anything in human history was provided by Dr Dick, on the XLForum. Don't put all those loose rollers in with lithium grease first. Slap the tranny in after you grease it up, and then put the rollers in from the outside. Be sure to put in the washer, and then do the snap ring. Wear safety glasses, that snap-ring loves to fly.

And speaking of Dr. Dick, everything you need to know about kicker slip is over on the XLForum as well, across 5 posts--

My personal hell was working on the slip, replacing the whole setup, and it still slipped. The problem was that the sliding gear bushing was too large to drop all the way into the kicker pawl plate on the back of the clutch basket. It took a lathe to turn it down. Dr. Dick explains the right way to set this up, but at least mine works.

I have always believed in holding in the clutch at lights, since the shifting "thunk" feels like it is tearing up first gear dogs. Thing is, holding in the clutch on the dry clutch wears the thrust bearing, so the basket can sag, and that is why my slider kicker gear started to hang up. Live and learn. And I had it all apart and was too dumb to replace the thrust washer.

I am SportsterPavel over on XLforum, since SportsterPaul was already taken. I am Sportsterpaul on eBay however.
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Re: Update on my 64

Postby Zaemo » Wed Dec 09, 2015 9:14 am

Hey Paul,
Thanks for the notes. The cases have been together for a while now and they don't leak, fortunately. I used the H-D brand because it was the only thing I could get on a Saturday. It worked quite well.
I've been over Dr. D's kicker thread a couple dozen times. I've got some stuff coming from him tomorrow. I have put a back cut into the teeth on my mill and may post about that depending on how well it works! I figure if I can have a Mag Sporty that doesn't leak, doesn't slip and starts really well, I'm winning the fight.

I've spotted you on eBay already.
Thanks again,
Z
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Re: Update on my 64

Postby thefrenchowl » Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:31 pm

Not trying to be awkward, Zeamo,

But if the factory tells you 45 deg full advance, 15 thou on the mag points, 1 and 1/4 turn on both needles of carb to start with, what the point in experimenting other values and then go back to factory settings once you discovered that your own settings won't work???

You are on your own while they have spend hundred of thousands of $ and man hours in the labs before selling the bikes to save you time once you own it...

Patrick
Flat Head Forever
https://web.archive.org/web/20071011184353/http://www.harleykrxlrtt.com/index.htm
I'm the one who has to die when it's time for me to die so let me live my life the way I want to...
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Re: Update on my 64

Postby Zaemo » Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:58 pm

Patrick,
The points gap trials were concerning the Morris retarding cap which states .019 gap rather than stock due to the change in geometry. Someone recommended .015 on that unit to get it to work right. I removed it alltogether to gain consistency. I am running the points at factory .015 with factory breaker inside now.

The plug gaps can be fine tuned. I have much more spark with this rare earth rotor from Morris. Dr Dick told me that guys were having luck with .024 to .028 on the spark plug gap if running a higher output mag. If it were stock, I would go with factory spec. Since I respect Dr Dicks opinion very much, I opened the plug gap up in the name of tuning.

If you were dead set on factory specs on the plugs on a completely factory mag setup, why wouldn't you even try moving a thou or two to see if there is improvemen?. It takes all of a few minutes to try.
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Re: Update on my 64

Postby Zaemo » Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:04 pm

I have timed my bike with a strobe light. Dr Dick and another gentleman suggested running the mark left of center to retard slightly.
I have been riding and adjusting the timing by a degree or two to dial it in by how the bike responds. I understand that I may need to compromise this for starting. My mag is static and most people retard for starting anyway so adjusting the actual running timing to accommodate how I like the motor to respond and ease of starting.

Would you agree that the factory was dialing in the bikes with very different fuel 50 years ago?
Z
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Re: Update on my 64

Postby thefrenchowl » Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:02 pm

Hi Zeamo,

Well, in honest truth, spark advance or retard is always a compromise, then and now!!! If it wasn't for all the EPA crap manufacturers have to deal with these days, injection and electronic ignition via CPU is the best if you don't mind the complications or being stranded on the road cause nothing is repairable when it fails...

For sure, you can experiment one way or the other to find your engine sweet spot, we all know K, KH or Sportster engines have personalities like living persons, but your best new found settings won't be that far out from what's in the manuals.

It can't be otherwise since mix and rpm variations are the same then and now.

But I never had an issue with std Fairbanks Morse magnetos in the 33 years I've been using them (and every time I swapped old parts for new ones they would not work until I put the old parts back in...)

Sometimes I feel guys are chasing the wrong problems, and I don't like to be patronising so keep me mouth shut...

All that to say that rare earth magnets and whatever else they can invent to try to sell more gear seems over the board to meself...

As a general rule, I believe hard starting is nicely split 90% carb and 10% ignition ; - )

Still, I can't start them 45 deg full advance Sportsters so easy these days, will be 65 in January, so looking forward to redo this 55 KHK very soon ; - )

Patrick
Flat Head Forever
https://web.archive.org/web/20071011184353/http://www.harleykrxlrtt.com/index.htm
I'm the one who has to die when it's time for me to die so let me live my life the way I want to...
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