Hi all, and bear with me...
This discussion was started on the Knucklenutz forum (now defunct) on Monday March the 10th, 2008 by Herbert Wagner following an article he published in the AMCA Vintage Club Magazine. He wanted to gather opinions and reactions to his piece. Both of his articles are not available, if one of you have them,it'd be nice to scan them so we can all see where the contentions were...
I jumped in with my thoughts since Hergert looked at the K from an engineering point of view and my long involvement with the racing aspect and my own KHK made for a view from a different angle... Here we go, I'll split the discussion a bit to keep some air, but nothing added or subtracted!!!:
Herb:
At the AMCA website there is a newly researched and written 2-part series about Harley's search for a post-war middle-weight twin. It tells of the nearly unknown Model KL (plus some other cancelled projects along the way), the controversial side-valve K/KH, and the legendary XL Sportster lines and the tortured way they came into existence -- or didn't.
Secrets of the Sportster, Part 1
http://www.antiquemotorcycle.org/TheMag ... r_pt1.html
Secrets of the Sportster, Part 2
http://www.antiquemotorcycle.org/TheMag ... tster.html
Pat:
Hi Herb,
Just read the 1st part of your AMCA article... I like a good discussion, so here it is!!! Look at this photo of the factory remnants of the KL prototype:
One can clearly see on them the outline of the trap door, introduced on the mid 54 KH side valves...
If this KL was indeed produced BEFORE the K model in 52, are you then telling me they deleted the trap door on the 1st few years of the K??? NO WAY!!!
Other flaws in your theory:
- If the KL was supposed to be a 45 replacement, that would have left H-D with racing the WR in the mid 50's, NO WAY, it was already obsolete just after the war and they surely needed a race 45 side valve replacement, hence the K as any race bike needed a street equivalent to be aproved by the AMA
- The unit construction K or KL clearly fit the K/KH frame, see rear engine mount cum tomahawk interface, I can't see it being fitted in a WL type frame very easily...
As I can't see the K frame being designed just after the war, it tells me the KL came after the K... On another point, if you look carefully at a 52K, you'll be amazed how nicely everything fits together.
I don't think it would have been such a nice intregration if the fast redesign from KL to K had been slotted in the KL frame. The KL don't look as integrated as a K, hence I conclude the KL was in fact slotted in a K frame.
- As shown on the above photographs, H-D had already made in the late 30's a 4 cam OHV based on the WL, not to mention the late 20's DAH 750 OHV 4 cam, so I can't see a problem in updating the 4 cam K to get a 4 cam Sportster, while the KL is a complete departure from anything the factory did before.
Knowing how conservative they all were, I just see the KL as a nice prototype/excercise, point blank, certainly not something that could have been much better than what we ended up with, the K/KH/Sportster...
Herb:
I agree about good discussion, and I appreciate your thoughtful reply.
thefrenchowl wrote:
Look at this photo of the factory remnants of the KL prototype:
One can clearly see on them the outline of the trap door, introduced on the mid 54 KH side valves...
If this KL was indeed produced BEFORE the K model in 52, are you then telling me they deleted the trap door on the 1st few years of the K??? NO WAY!!!
Your objection is a good one, but I think it is answered in Part 2 of the story. If this surviving KL motor crankcase has a trapdoor, that means this relic part must be a LATE KL made after the KH access door update. Part 2 states that the KL lingered on in the testing stage even after the XL was up and running in prototype form and for a time both KL & XL were tested side by side. This would make it a "late" KL, which makes sense as it was kept as a pet in Exp. Dept. for many years wired to wall.
thefrenchowl wrote:
Other flaws in your theory:
- If the KL was supposed to be a 45 replacement, that would have left H-D with racing the WR in the mid 50's, NO WAY, it was already obsolete just after the war and they surely needed a race 45 side valve replacement, hence the K as any race bike needed a street equivalent to be aproved by the AMA
I don't know that racing influenced Harley's engineering decisions for their new models very much. In the "official" records I have seen from that period, racing considerations are hardly mentioned at all if ever. If racing considerations had been mentioned by records or old Factory guys I would have put that into the story but I can't think of it showing up. Possibly it's there somewhere. Possibly the K as racing replacement for the WR was another consideration in its origin. That angle needs more research.
thefrenchowl wrote:
- The unit construction K or KL clearly fit the K/KH frame, see rear engine mount cum tomahawk interface, I can't see it being fitted in a WL type frame very easily...
KL was only fitted to the WL frame as an early experimental testbed job; in existence in 1948, perhaps earlier. Apparently at that time the WL frame was all they had. WL frame would have been highly modified to fit KL for test purposes only; not as possible stock machine as a sprung frame was intended for the post-war midsize twin all along. KL/WL job just a test job as I was told.
thefrenchowl wrote:
As I can't see the K frame being designed just after the war, it tells me the KL came after the K... On another point, if you look carefully at a 52K, you'll be amazed how nicely everything fits together.
Everything I have from original Harley sources and Factory guys from experimental say KL came first and then ran into difficulties so the K was launched instead. Even guys at Harley thought they were nuts coming out with a new side-valve in 1952. Everyone since that time has thought the same thing (except for a few die-hard flathead fans And it only makes sense with the KL project already in secret development but with problems and dealers SCREAMING for WL replacement.
thefrenchowl wrote:
I don't think it would have been such a nice intregration if the fast redesign from KL to K had been slotted in the KL frame. The KL don't look as integrated as a K, hence I conclude the KL was in fact slotted in a K frame.
You're right. And very likely the fast redesign from KL to K included chassis updates too. It was another go-around. The KL bike photo we have might reflect another later prototype with K modifications. Don't forget, even with the K in production H-D still planned to introduce KL, so it would have had K updates (like the trapdoor). It would be good to date that KL photo by its negative number. That might tell us more.
thefrenchowl wrote:
- As shown on the above photographs, H-D had already made in the late 30's a 4 cam OHV based on the WL, not to mention the late 20's DAH 750 OHV 4 cam, so I can't see a problem in updating the 4 cam K to get a 4 cam Sportster, while the KL is a complete departure from anything the factory did before.
There was no problem updating the K to XL. The KL was indeed their big project. I think they thought of KL as EL Knucklehead deja vu all over again, but this time for the 1950s. Only it didn't pan out that way.
thefrenchowl wrote:
Knowing how conservative they all were, I just see the KL as a nice prototype/excercise, point blank, certainly not something that could have been much better than what we ended up with, the K/KH/Sportster...
Patrick
Oh no, the KL was not just a "nice prototype/excercise, point blank." Far from it. KL was fully intended to be Harley's "ultimate de-luxe" (their words) super production bike for the 1950s to counter the British invasion of mid-size ohv twins. No way in hell was a side-valve going to do that. This aspect is no "theory" but documented. The KL was the second generation Harley and Davidsons' Dream Baby long before the XL was even a concept. The K was a stopgap measure until the KL was ready. When KL got too expensive and troublesome they took the easy way out by transforming the 4-camshaft K into an overhead. When you read Part 2 you'll get more of their strategy as KL slowly died and XL came into being.
That said, I do not claim this story is 100% correct as it was put together from bits and pieces of evidence and interviews, etc. I'll gladly improve and modify it given documentation. Some of the stuff you say has merit. Don't get me wrong. The exact dates and sequences still need to be worked out better and there are gaps where I had to guess. This story is a work in progress and my first serious venture into the 1950s. I never dreamed the Sportster or its ancestors were this interesting or involved. But then it's always this way...