Wet Sumping Ibfo, fix and tools

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Wet Sumping Ibfo, fix and tools

Postby Ferrous_Head » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:42 pm

The design of the oil pump for our beloved IH's is perhaps, a little rudimentary. They work well enough for most situations but do have one annoying habit. They tend to leak like a sieve. They leak on the inside. This leak leads to what we know as “wet sumping”. This is normally nothing more than a pain in the proverbial . But in some circumstances it can be a headache.

My sidecar engine does not have the sump plug. Some engines never had the holes drilled and tapped for the sump plug. I know most people never pull the sump plugs out for fear of damaging the threads. But I do. Or would if I could.

When your engine does wet sump it can make it much harder to kick it over. On a stroker burning Methanol it just makes it nearly impossible. With a solo I could lay it on it's side and pull the primary cover. Try that one with a sidecar.

So, after having my engine wet sump one more time I vowed to do something about it.

And here's what I did.
I installed another oil seal inside the pump. In the pump tower to be precise. The pump already has an oil seal in the body of the pump. This seal stops oil from leaking past the shaft on the scavenge side and into the feed side gears.
What HD didn't do was use an oil seal above the feed gears to stop oil leaking past the shaft into the pump tower.
So the shaft itself just runs against the cast iron pump tower. Well, until it wears enough clearance for itself to not interfere with the oils passage.
Once that happens the pump will leak. With the bike leaned on it's kick stand the oil leaks into the sump and then overflows into the primary case via the oil transfer valve in the left case half.

This really is a design flaw and should have never been allowed to persist.
Anyway, the solution is to install a seal in the pump tower
The biggest problem here is the area that should hold the seal is only about 3mm thick. And the answer to that problem is to machine up a “top hat” to be pressed into the pump tower to hold the seal.

The seal I used is the same seal used in the pump body. 26227-58 About $4 worth.

I know longer have a mill or a lathe. (Too old and blind) so I farmed out the machining operation to a local shop. Took them ½ hour to make two top hats and machine the towers and press in the top hats. They made two tools for me while they were at it.
The first is a backing tool that stops the pump tower face from distorting (bending inwards) when the top hat is pressed into place. The second is a seal installer. It can be dome without the seal installer but it's a very simple thing for anyone with a lathe to make. Both tools are.
After the top hat is pressed into place the pump tower face is faced off. HD's work here is less than stellar in any case.

So, $55 for the machine work and $8 for two seals. One pump tower is going in the race engine and one is for my big bore stroker engine.
$29.50 each.

I lose that much in oil when the thing wet sumps.

Sorry the drawing for the top hat is more a sketch than a CAD drawing but I'm a blind man. And I'm old. I might get time to do a better one later on but the critical dimensions are there.
Oh sorry we work in the metric system here. You might need to convert to inches.
I should have had a picture of the top hat as well but missed my opportunity on that one. Sorry

Here's the machines tower with the hat already pressed in. It should be clear to your machinist what is required from this. The actual line between the pump itself and the top hat is hard to see but it is there.

Image

Here's the dimensions for the top hat.

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Before the seal is installed


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Or, if this is "Old Hat" and you guys don't want to know about it - let me know.

PS I am currently testing this mod on my race engine so soon enough I'll know how good it is.
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"I know only too well the evil that I propose. But my inclinations get the better of me."
"I know only too well the evil that I propose, but my inclinations get the better of me."
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Re: Wet Sumping Ibfo, fix and tools

Postby Ferrous_Head » Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:11 pm

These are the very simple tools I had made up for installation.

One is for "backing" the tower cover when pressing in the top hat.

One is for installing the oil seals. It can be used on the pump body seal as well. Handy to have.

Threaded end isn't required - it was just a bit of left over scrap I had.



Image

Image


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Re: Wet Sumping Ibfo, fix and tools

Postby Lisa » Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:38 pm

The crook stole my idea and made it sound like his idea. What a work of art he is . Another Ferrous Head statements not telling the truth. Proven lie. The way I feel now is I don't care if I get booted out of this forum because I say it like it is with all true facts about him and his lie's about me.
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Re: Wet Sumping Ibfo, fix and tools

Postby Ferrous_Head » Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:00 pm

Nope. Never stated this was all my idea.I'm not the first and won't be the last to make use of knowledge other people have found to make life better
But although I tried to buy a product from you all I got was grief. You wanted nothing other than to sell me one of your pumps for $300.

You cost me money and time and that's the simple truth.

You are one of the very few I have run into on the forums trying to dud me.

In the end you FORCED me to do this for myself. I have no qualms at all about sharing what I know with other people. I'll happily tell them what I know about IH engines. It's not everything nu a long shot but I'm not trying to get money off them for what I know.

The forums aren't really supposed to be about running a busines for you.

It's a conversation for people who want to share.

I've kept quite about this for the best part of a year. You should probably stop shouting it out to all the world.
"I know only too well the evil that I propose, but my inclinations get the better of me."
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Re: Wet Sumping Ibfo, fix and tools

Postby rufus » Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:32 am

"Knowledge comes alive when everyone collects it, shares it, and learns from it". Thank you ......
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Re: Wet Sumping Ibfo, fix and tools

Postby Lisa » Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:36 am

Sold a ton of my pumps all over the world with NO comebacks or problems. %100 Feedback All were satisfied
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Re: Wet Sumping Ibfo, fix and tools

Postby wz507 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:40 am

Here is another twist on a cover fix. In this case a previous owner had attempted to drive the breather valve gear out of the cover with the drive pin still in the shaft of the breather valve gear, and in so doing basically destroyed the cover where the breather valve gear shaft resides. Had a friend machine the cover and make a new bushing out of G2 that was pressed into the cover and silver-soldered in place to both restore the damaged area of the cover and provide a seating area for the oil seal. The fine light colored line visible around the seal recess is the band of silver solder securing the bushing in place.

LR oil pump cover.jpg
LR oil pump cover.jpg (35.47 KiB) Viewed 4507 times
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Re: Wet Sumping Ibfo, fix and tools

Postby JohnF » Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:24 pm

Ferrous Head, would you be able to provide dimension of the tool kit you machined for installing top hat and seal into the oil pump parts? I am getting ready to do the required machining to a few of the oil pumps I have and it would save me time and guess work, and much appreciated.

I am also machining some engine case fixtures to allow accurate repairs, machining, welding, etc. Found several cracks in my left side case when doing tear down from a barn find so doing repairs in my shop verses trying to find good used cases, or some OEM replacement cases. Hope I’m lucky!

Again, appreciate the support.
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Re: Wet Sumping Ibfo, fix and tools

Postby Ferrous_Head » Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:40 pm

I can get those measurements. Might take me a day or two as I think the tools are over at a Mate's hose.
But the driver is just the inside of a standard oil seal hole. And the outside is the diameter of the seal.
You can take the measurements off an oil seal when you have one.
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Re: Wet Sumping Ibfo, fix and tools

Postby Lisa » Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:51 pm

Ben doing them for over 5 years now nothing new. Works every time except if the ball seat isn't perfect I re cut them too to seat perfect. Every pump I have done works perfect. Wet sump is history.
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