Kickstand TAbs

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Kickstand TAbs

Postby MTaylor » Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:32 pm

Just wondering what everyone is doing about the kickstand tabs on the frame.

I was at the Tenino Swap Meet (sponsored by our AMCA Chapter) this weekend, and I saw no less than four set of cases that had been damaged on the primary flange at one time of another by the frame tab breaking.

Of course, Harley solved that problem in the mid-sixties when they started to weld the tab to the driver support mount.

I talked to one fellow a couple years ago that had his tab break on his fully restored XLCH while it was sitting in his garage (damaging his cases, not to mention other damage as a result of the fall).

So, my question for all your restorers out their is this--do you weld the kick stand tab to the driver support mount or do you leave it original? I talked to Scott Lange about this once, and he said he left his original, but it seems to me a very risky business, especially considering that our frames in most cases are over sixty years old.
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Re: Kickstand TAbs

Postby EKHKHK56 » Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:26 pm

Good subject, I have one K frame that has the Tab snapped in half right between the bolt hole and the main part. Looks like instant fracture/failure. So the Tab is the weak spot in itself looks like. I`m going to inspect mine closely, and keep using a block. A 2" or 3" block under the kickstand cuts the weight down on the kickstand a lot. I use a block already to keep from sinking in the asphalt when parked in front of the shop. Have to look at this closer. Erik
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Re: Kickstand TAbs

Postby Hammie13 » Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:56 pm

I know it's not correct,but I used a big twin kick stand on mine,I drilled holes in the front motor mount and set it up that way after my tab broke. This was way back when,and I was all of 19 or so,but it worked great and set the bike up taller.
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Re: Kickstand TAbs

Postby dr dick » Sun Aug 24, 2014 12:59 pm

yes, on 67< short frame bikes the kickstand tab needs to be viewed with much consideration, if you dont want to be welding cases.
how would you feel about being the guy who de-virginizes a prime case set?

one thing to ask yourself is "by the time i got this bike how bent and stressed is the tab already?"
probably pretty far gone if your bike has any appreciable milage.

answering that may bring you this question:
am i a restorer or am i a preserver?
usually guys with this amount of passion are both.

some mechanics of broken tabs:
1) tab is a steel casting. it tends to work harden. that means each time it flexes past a certain point it gets less flexable (more brittle).
its this britletness that leads to parked failures.

2) becasuse the tab is connected to frame cradle tube, the tube flexes and twists when you kickstart when on the side stand.
if your jiffy stand head is close to case it can contact case during kick starts- not good at all. with bike on stand lay on floor and jostle bike while eyeballing stand to case clearance. you'll see.

3) THE MOST IMPORTANT.
lean angle. the more it is the greater the force on tab.
make no mistake- its the force on tab that is the root cause of failures.

so you may feel it important to restore and preserve.
so feed the restorer in you and dont weld to peg support.
instead heat and bend tab to reduce lean angle. this will also anneal tab. that removes any built up brittleness.
the reduced lean angle will have a great effect on tab and stand life. and it aids in staring.
this option WILL preserve your cases.

heat at drilled hole (not stand pin hole) . this is where you want to to reform the material. be careful. the tab is tack welded then sweated to frame tube. ive never had a problem with loosening the sweat joint, but i guess its possible.

when you see old pics of bikes in dealer showrooms they arent leaning that much. bikes that are have bent tabs.
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Re: Kickstand TAbs

Postby EKHKHK56 » Sun Aug 24, 2014 1:20 pm

Excellent information! I was thinking about annealing and stress relieving with heat and wondered if the factory did any. The break happens right between where the tab is heated from the weld and not. All the stress from use works on that area where the welded and superheated part of the tab meets the rest of it. You would want to heat entire tab than let cool slowly. Fast cooling makes steel harder and more brittle. Good points Dr! Erik
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Re: Kickstand TAbs

Postby John R » Mon Aug 25, 2014 12:35 pm

Boy! All this has made me nervous over something I'd never even considered in 15 years of riding a KK! The following may be a helpful.

Because of the tendency for oil to get into the clutch basket if parked on jiffy stand, I park it leaning to the right. I do this by having a loop of tie-down webbing in a well secured steel eye in the garage wall and hooking round the steering damper. The angle of lean can be adjusted through using the ratchet tensioner. I still put a thick block under the jiffy stand to make sure it can't topple to the left. Parked on a centre stand should do the trick too.

The clutch has always been a charmer and on recent strip-down the clutch was dry, so that aspect is good. My new thought is that the frame tab doesn't have that constant bending force when parked in the garage which for any rider is probably over 95% of the time. Must help its longevity.

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Re: Kickstand TAbs

Postby 55khkjoe » Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:26 pm

Good subject, it makes you nervous, especially if your a left footed kicker like I have been for the last 40 years. 52-early 53 frames I would really be nervous with out the extra weld at the tab. My 55 cases have been repaired there, when I bought it, was in an early frame. My 4H -52A frame is a little beefier at the tab. I was glad to see John brought up wet sumping. Both the 53KK and the 55 KHK I installed a shutoff on the oil feed line from the oil tank to the crankcase. This is the only cure I know of except for a 56 pump, but do not forget to turn it on when riding. The early racers would run a wire up to the handle bars with a alligator clip to remind them to turn on after down time between races. The 55 is worse at wet sumping with the transfer valve Harley put in the left case. It will damn near empty your oil tank. 1st place it comes out is the countershaft sprocket oil seal. Any more thoughts on wet sumping I would like to hear about it. Joe
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Re: Kickstand TAbs

Postby dr dick » Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:48 pm

yes john i agree. keep your bike leaned the other way if you using an e57< drum.

and dont forget the stupid things we do to our bikes when on the kickstand.

like sitting on it while parked and yuk-yuking it up with other nere-do-wells. every knee slap is is a face slap to the tab. this means side saddle too.

place it on the stand with some grace. dont be a teenager who gets off the still moving bike and lets the stand act as the brake.
those of you who do use a block under the stand- if you keep it in place while starting you will notice the decreased force applied to the tab.

watch you primary side peg mount. if you see it move in relation to the primary cover it obvious your twisting the lower frame tube isnt it?

ive learned long ago to give the tab its due. it pays off way big in ways that arent readily seen or often thought about.

you guys may wanna check this out. its a 66ch my brother bought. you will see we attacked this before even riding the bike.
http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/show ... ?t=1567534
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Re: Kickstand TAbs

Postby John R » Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:45 pm

I wasn't bringing-up wet sumping - that's a whole different deal! Just the slow leakage you can get into the clutch basket if left leaning to the left. It makes its way through the clearance between main-shaft and clutch-gear and even if the clutch push-rod seal is good gradually works its way through thread clearances of the nut, etc. Not a lot, but at say one drip a week it adds-up.

My clutch on the KK has stayed dry over 15 years and with much less spring pressure than the handbook states has no hint of slip or drag. And easier on the wrist! My KHK is also running much less spring pre-load and is a bit snatchy (all plates are good and flat) but no drag. Just over 1000 miles from rebuild, so don't know long-term how it will be. Can clutch plates be too clean?

I don't know what either set of linings are, but not OEM. Running both dry. Maybe KHK ones are for wet set-up.

I'll start a new topic on wet sumping...
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Re: Kickstand TAbs

Postby dr dick » Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:43 am

if your using the early clutch nut with the bellows, the lock tab is supposed to act as a seal to keep oil inside nut. thats why they (the lock tab) were alum. the switch to brass happened around 66, and the brass was soft enuff to at as a sealing washer too.

in L56 wen the gear extension with its lip seal was introduced the internal shape of the nut was thought to act as a slinger. didnt work out that good.
in L57 an oring was added to the extension that seals to the inside bore of the nut. combine this with the sealing lock tab and things got pretty oil-tite at the nut.

i too use way less spring pressure than fsm states. the oe clutch, either the 5 or the 7, has way more capacity than needed. so why not ease up on things?

depending on what frictions you actually have, the friction point can get very narrow.
the oe dry plates give the widest friction points imo.

most plates no matter the material can get grabby when they get just oil damp. as the oil tends to turn to gum. as more oil gets in the grabby gets replaced by slip then slip and drag.
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