Wet Sumping Ibfo, fix and tools

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Wet Sumping Ibfo, fix and tools

Postby Ferrous_Head » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:42 pm

The design of the oil pump for our beloved IH's is perhaps, a little rudimentary. They work well enough for most situations but do have one annoying habit. They tend to leak like a sieve. They leak on the inside. This leak leads to what we know as “wet sumping”. This is normally nothing more than a pain in the proverbial . But in some circumstances it can be a headache.

My sidecar engine does not have the sump plug. Some engines never had the holes drilled and tapped for the sump plug. I know most people never pull the sump plugs out for fear of damaging the threads. But I do. Or would if I could.

When your engine does wet sump it can make it much harder to kick it over. On a stroker burning Methanol it just makes it nearly impossible. With a solo I could lay it on it's side and pull the primary cover. Try that one with a sidecar.

So, after having my engine wet sump one more time I vowed to do something about it.

And here's what I did.
I installed another oil seal inside the pump. In the pump tower to be precise. The pump already has an oil seal in the body of the pump. This seal stops oil from leaking past the shaft on the scavenge side and into the feed side gears.
What HD didn't do was use an oil seal above the feed gears to stop oil leaking past the shaft into the pump tower.
So the shaft itself just runs against the cast iron pump tower. Well, until it wears enough clearance for itself to not interfere with the oils passage.
Once that happens the pump will leak. With the bike leaned on it's kick stand the oil leaks into the sump and then overflows into the primary case via the oil transfer valve in the left case half.

This really is a design flaw and should have never been allowed to persist.
Anyway, the solution is to install a seal in the pump tower
The biggest problem here is the area that should hold the seal is only about 3mm thick. And the answer to that problem is to machine up a “top hat” to be pressed into the pump tower to hold the seal.

The seal I used is the same seal used in the pump body. 26227-58 About $4 worth.

I know longer have a mill or a lathe. (Too old and blind) so I farmed out the machining operation to a local shop. Took them ½ hour to make two top hats and machine the towers and press in the top hats. They made two tools for me while they were at it.
The first is a backing tool that stops the pump tower face from distorting (bending inwards) when the top hat is pressed into place. The second is a seal installer. It can be dome without the seal installer but it's a very simple thing for anyone with a lathe to make. Both tools are.
After the top hat is pressed into place the pump tower face is faced off. HD's work here is less than stellar in any case.

So, $55 for the machine work and $8 for two seals. One pump tower is going in the race engine and one is for my big bore stroker engine.
$29.50 each.

I lose that much in oil when the thing wet sumps.

Sorry the drawing for the top hat is more a sketch than a CAD drawing but I'm a blind man. And I'm old. I might get time to do a better one later on but the critical dimensions are there.
Oh sorry we work in the metric system here. You might need to convert to inches.
I should have had a picture of the top hat as well but missed my opportunity on that one. Sorry

Here's the machines tower with the hat already pressed in. It should be clear to your machinist what is required from this. The actual line between the pump itself and the top hat is hard to see but it is there.

Image

Here's the dimensions for the top hat.

Image

Before the seal is installed


Image



Or, if this is "Old Hat" and you guys don't want to know about it - let me know.

PS I am currently testing this mod on my race engine so soon enough I'll know how good it is.
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"I know only too well the evil that I propose, but my inclinations get the better of me."
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Re: Wet Sumping Ibfo, fix and tools

Postby Ferrous_Head » Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:11 pm

These are the very simple tools I had made up for installation.

One is for "backing" the tower cover when pressing in the top hat.

One is for installing the oil seals. It can be used on the pump body seal as well. Handy to have.

Threaded end isn't required - it was just a bit of left over scrap I had.



Image

Image


Image
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Re: Wet Sumping Ibfo, fix and tools

Postby rufus » Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:32 am

"Knowledge comes alive when everyone collects it, shares it, and learns from it". Thank you ......
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Re: Wet Sumping Ibfo, fix and tools

Postby wz507 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:40 am

Here is another twist on a cover fix. In this case a previous owner had attempted to drive the breather valve gear out of the cover with the drive pin still in the shaft of the breather valve gear, and in so doing basically destroyed the cover where the breather valve gear shaft resides. Had a friend machine the cover and make a new bushing out of G2 that was pressed into the cover and silver-soldered in place to both restore the damaged area of the cover and provide a seating area for the oil seal. The fine light colored line visible around the seal recess is the band of silver solder securing the bushing in place.

LR oil pump cover.jpg
LR oil pump cover.jpg (35.47 KiB) Viewed 15271 times
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Re: Wet Sumping Ibfo, fix and tools

Postby JohnF » Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:24 pm

Ferrous Head, would you be able to provide dimension of the tool kit you machined for installing top hat and seal into the oil pump parts? I am getting ready to do the required machining to a few of the oil pumps I have and it would save me time and guess work, and much appreciated.

I am also machining some engine case fixtures to allow accurate repairs, machining, welding, etc. Found several cracks in my left side case when doing tear down from a barn find so doing repairs in my shop verses trying to find good used cases, or some OEM replacement cases. Hope I’m lucky!

Again, appreciate the support.
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Re: Wet Sumping Ibfo, fix and tools

Postby Ferrous_Head » Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:40 pm

I can get those measurements. Might take me a day or two as I think the tools are over at a Mate's hose.
But the driver is just the inside of a standard oil seal hole. And the outside is the diameter of the seal.
You can take the measurements off an oil seal when you have one.
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Re: Wet Sumping Ibfo, fix and tools

Postby dr dick » Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:32 am

Lisa wrote:The crook stole my idea and made it sound like his idea. What a work of art he is . Another Ferrous Head statements not telling the truth. Proven lie. The way I feel now is I don't care if I get booted out of this forum because I say it like it is with all true facts about him and his lie's about me.


lisa i understand that you are selling a service.
you had to do prototypes to get a commercially viable product.
that cost you capital. the idea must have been bet capital in upfront to reap greater return later.
and you want to defend your commercial return from piracy.
totally understandable. thats what patents are for.
but you have no patent application from what i can find.
if so lisa, you are the pirate. not ferrous.
so qyb.

proof:
http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=581947
in this thread i explained how static wet sumping occurs.
post #40. note the date of posting.

to anyone with any mechanical inclination an oblivious "cure" is in plain sight.
a re-readin of post #40 shows that i am giving away any ownership of intellectual property to the public.
as to "your ownership" of this idea i submit the very next post.
#41 take note of the member name and post date.

he has done with the info in post #40 is exactly the same you have done.
his right to do as he pleases with is equal to yours.
if based on acknowledgment date he seems to have a stronger case than you.
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Disciplinary Actions - Re: Wet Sumping Ibfo, fix and tools

Postby hennesse » Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:27 pm

"Lisa" (aka Tom) has been banned permanently from posting on the forums.

Lisa has repeatedly posted messages on these forums advertising his part and services. He has been told to limit himself to posting in the Parts Exchange section, but has disregarded this constraint. He repeatedly posts inflammatory and argumentative messages. He (as "Tom") was banned from posting several years ago for the same behavior. He then started calling me on my home phone and leaving threatening and obscene voicemail messages. On at least one occasion, my wife answered the phone, and he used threatening and obscene language with her.

We really don't need people like this on our forums.

Ferrous_head has been banned for a period of 30 days.
You didn't start the argument, but you did throw some fuel on the fire. I think a 30-day cooling off period is appropriate. We'll see you after Christmas.
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Re: Wet Sumping Ibfo, fix and tools

Postby dlxl66elxl » Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:47 pm

Dave,
Many thanks to you for your expertise, time and dedication for this site. My colleges at the international antique club have shared with me that this site has the greatest breadth and depth of any of the sites dedicated to motorcycle marque knowledge sharing. With over half a century of early Sportster enjoyment, I am always learning something new, thanks in most part to this site.
In keeping with that spirt of information sharing, I concur with your actions, as this is no place for rants, raves or personnel attacks. It is clearly a forum to share knowledge and information for the betterment of our desire to enjoy and preserve theses K models and early Sportsters. Let us all not forget that.
To Dave and all, stay and ride safe.
DaveC
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Re: Wet Sumping Ibfo, fix and tools

Postby dlxl66elxl » Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:47 pm

Dave,
Many thanks to you for your expertise, time and dedication for this site. My colleges at the international antique club have shared with me that this site has the greatest breadth and depth of any of the sites dedicated to motorcycle marque knowledge sharing. With over half a century of early Sportster enjoyment, I am always learning something new, thanks in most part to this site.
In keeping with that spirt of information sharing, I concur with your actions, as this is no place for rants, raves or personnel attacks. It is clearly a forum to share knowledge and information for the betterment of our desire to enjoy and preserve theses K models and early Sportsters. Let us all not forget that.
To Dave and all, stay and ride safe.
DaveC
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Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:36 pm

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