Are Duplicate K Model Engine Numbers Possible?

Production K Models

Re: Are Duplicate K Model Engine Numbers Possible?

Postby chuckthebeatertruck » Thu Nov 10, 2022 9:04 am

There’s nothing for the police here.

It’s not for police to solve civil matters. It is up to the op to prove his claim, not the state to disprove it.

There’s zero evidence of a crime and cops know better than to get involved.

What there is evidence of are two numbers.

In most states, you have two recourses

1) file a civil suit against dmv to force a hearing. This usually takes a few years.

2) file a letter with the theft and corrections division requesting a review and decision. This is letter only and facts only. Takes3-9 months to get a response.

Because the bike isn’t in nmvtis, you “could” try to title in another state. . .and just keep the problem going for someone else.
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Re: Are Duplicate K Model Engine Numbers Possible?

Postby panic » Thu Nov 10, 2022 1:34 pm

Not police business?
Stamping numbers on any case is illegal under both Federal and New York State law (unless you're Harley-Davidson, or acting on their authority). I was licensed as a NY Motor Vehicle Inspector.
Next time you're stopped, mention, in passing, that there is another bike with the same VIN.
Bet you $1. he calls for the tow truck. Biggest reason why not? He's lazy.

Things do not become legal because no one does anything.
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Re: Are Duplicate K Model Engine Numbers Possible?

Postby chuckthebeatertruck » Thu Nov 10, 2022 3:51 pm

That's right, Panic -- it's not a police matter. The OPs experience so far is testament to this, he's gone through all the LEO hoops and was told flat out by the police in his home state that this is not a police matter.

As for this business about restamping - there's no evidence this has occurred. YOU have jumped to the conclusion there is illegal stamping and a crime committed. This whole matter can be as simple as someone typing 53K instead of 54K.

Not to mention, restamps aren't always illegal.

Despite all the bullshido across forums; the truth is that it is not illegal at the Federal level to restamp a VIN for repair or restoration purposes. It is only illegal to tamper with a VIN to try and obscure or alter the identity of a vehicle.

A lot of people don't believe this, mostly because they have not been in the vehicle repair business and do not know that the Feds and most states have provisions for VIN repair/replacement. These provisions apply to private individuals and their agents (aka repair shops).

At the FEDERAL level, VIN restamps and replacement are covered by U.S. Code section 18 USC 511.

You can look up the PDF of the code right here: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USC ... sec511.pdf

This section of the code DOES declare that anyone who “knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an identification number for a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part” can face as much as five years in prison and a $10,000 fine.

However, it makes an exemption for “a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair.”

specifically you discover B and C are directly applicable to many bikers with busted cases:

(b)(1) Subsection (a) of this section does not
apply to a removal, obliteration, tampering, or
alteration by a person specified in paragraph (2)
of this subsection (unless such person knows
that the vehicle or part involved is stolen).
(2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of
this subsection are—
(A) a motor vehicle scrap processor or a
motor vehicle demolisher who complies with
applicable State law with respect to such vehi-
cle or part;
(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or
part, if the removal, obliteration, tampering,
or alteration is reasonably necessary for the
repair;
(C) a person who restores or replaces an
identification number for such vehicle or part
in accordance with applicable State law; and

(D) a person who removes, obliterates,
tampers with, or alters a decal or device af-
fixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor
Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is
the owner of the motor vehicle, or is author-
ized to remove, obliterate, tamper with or
alter the decal or device by—
(i) the owner or his authorized agent;
(ii) applicable State or local law; or
(iii) regulations promulgated by the Attor-
ney General to implement the Motor Vehicle
Theft Prevention Act.
(c) As used in this section, the term—
(1) ‘‘identification number’’ means a number
or symbol that is inscribed or affixed for pur-
poses of identification under chapter 301 and
part C of subtitle VI of title 49;


In other words, you or a repair shop you engage can legally restamp a VIN if necessary for repairs. This is the FEDERAL law about VINs.

The state level is where it gets messy and everything depends on your state laws. Currently about 35 states have laws which make it very clear owners and their agents (ie repair shops) can restamp if needed for repairs.

For most of those ~35 states, there is not even a requirement the VIN look original. All that is required is that it is "neatly done and conforms to the original placement." From there, it is generally as simple as keeping a record of the change, having your handiwork inspected and signed off on by a state trooper authorized to confirm VIN repair within 90 days of the restamp, and signing an affidavit or providing evidence the original number/part was destroyed.

There are several companies who sell blank VIN and blank door jamb stickers directly to certified repair shops for these reasons.

For those 15 or so states where this is still grey -- there's been an effort by the auto repair industry to clarify over the past 10 years. Those states without clear laws put repair shops into legal binds. This article makes it clear: https://www.repairerdrivennews.com/2017 ... -a-repair/

But, remember what i said about this not being universal at the state level and how others may not always understand?

The most famous case right now was just decided a few weeks ago. In sum; a restorer in Indiana did a VIN replacement on a Corvette. The VIN replacement was legal under FEDERAL and Indiana law -- but Kansas law said any VIN replacement was contraband. The kansas state inspector was top notch and noted the VIN in question was affixed with rivets when in the year in question it should have been screwed into place. That immediately invalidated the vehicle in Kansas and it was impounded. The private owner sued and this happened:

https://kansasreflector.com/briefs/corv ... -vehicles/

The owner also won their suit but were only awarded $20,000 restitution:
https://www.hagerty.com/media/news/corv ... n-debacle/


So, yes, in your experience this may very well be evidence of a crime in NY state.

It does not mean it is automatically a crime or even a police matter in other states.
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Re: Are Duplicate K Model Engine Numbers Possible?

Postby panic » Thu Nov 10, 2022 5:26 pm

Your remarks might be of greater value if you understood what I wrote.
Laws that require intent to prosecute were written by lawyers to allow them to profit from guilty clients.
States lacking specific laws are in the same category as "nothing says you can't eat your children". Silence is not permission.
Every State requires a declaration by an applicant for a title or registration that they are the sole and legal owner under penalty of perjury. They don't need to prosecute you, they just void your title and send the truck.
Two $1. bills with the same serial number will get you arrested every time, because there is no innocent explanation of how it happened.
Oddly enough, the law does not require a decision as to which article (object or statement) is false to determine fraud, merely that both may not true.

Those rare instances in which the innocent owner of a duplicate is acquitted are after enormous legal expense and endless delays.
The best hopes are that the County Attorney is very busy with his celebrity murder trial, or your lawyer plays golf with the judge.
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Re: Are Duplicate K Model Engine Numbers Possible?

Postby Ferrous_Head » Thu Nov 10, 2022 7:41 pm

Seems like the DMV and Police are not interested as they believe there is no crime.

Perhaps you should make it one.

As executor of his estate you now discover the bike is missing, stolen, you should notify the Police. You have documentation to prove you own the vehicle which is now ,missing. Unlawfully removed from the premises.
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Re: Are Duplicate K Model Engine Numbers Possible?

Postby dlxl66elxl » Thu Nov 10, 2022 7:45 pm

Once again, given the rarity of these bikes I would most likely guess that the other "duplicate" VIN was erroneously entered at some point manually by a DMV employee. I have seen this happen more than once here in CA. I would, under the freedom of information act, attempt to identify, locate and reach out to the owner of the other bike, see if you could look at the VIN and then figure out how to remedy the situation. This is a bit tricky as the problem is yours, not the other guys.

The path of least resistance may be to locate, examine and attempt to buy the other bike. Shoot for a win-win.
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Re: Are Duplicate K Model Engine Numbers Possible?

Postby panic » Thu Nov 10, 2022 7:50 pm

Decades ago, I challenged the accuracy of a National Auto Theft Bureau (an arm of the Justice Dep't.) official guide which was the sole source of the NY DMV's rejection of suspect vehicle registrations.
An old friend had failed their test, in which a DMV creature had told, and showed, him that the VIN character on the title he had did not exist.
I went back with him, we sat in an office with a uniformed and armed officer behind us, and proved them wrong with an original Chrysler service manual specifically listing that VIN character. He won, they lost.

Government employees live for an opportunity to demonstrate their power. Being innocent is of no interest to them. As the old Russian saying goes "Does a dog eat meat?".

Yes, I'm a retired Peace Officer.
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Re: Are Duplicate K Model Engine Numbers Possible?

Postby BigDen » Fri Nov 11, 2022 3:31 pm

I appreciate all of the responses so far. For the record, I want clarify my interactions with the CA DMV and CHP that led to my case being determined to be a "civil matter".

When DMV informed me there was another bike in there system with the same VIN, they directed me to CHP for VIN verification. The CHP motor officer who inspected my bike and provided me with VIN Verification Report directed me to call DMV Investigation office. That office directed me to submit an INV 172A Record of Complaint. I submitted the form, including attachments with copies of Pink Slip, Registrations, copy of Death Certificate, etc in March. A DMV investigator came to my house in April and inspected the bike. He completed his investigation of DMV records and submitted his report to CA DMV in Sacramento in April (I do not have a copy of his report). In September, I received a letter from the manager of the CA DMV Registration Operations Division, Involuntary Transfer Section. The letter documents the license number, vehicle (1953 HD), and VIN (same as mine) in their electronic records system. Here are the specifics from the letter.

"A review of department records indicates that a California Certificate of Title was issued May 7, 2009. Since we are unable to determine if the documents submitted contained fraudulent information, the issue of ownership is considered a civil matter. The department is unable to determine whether or not the documents used to transfer the vehicle contained a forged signature. The department takes a neutral position in matters involving disputes over the rightful ownership of a vehicle, and would consider this to be a civil matter between yourself and the interested parties."

Many of the folks at the DMV have said what some of you have said, that this is likely due to a keying error. As some of you have said, this is, as of now is not a police matter; nor as noted by DMV, no longer a DMV matter.

I am trying to find a lawyer to help me with getting the vehicle record information, and am trying to get the production ledger data from HD. Good to know that as of 10 years ago the production records still existed and that there was a research officer at HD. As noted, this will likely take a long time to resolve.

Thanks again to all of you who have responded with information and suggestions.

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Re: Are Duplicate K Model Engine Numbers Possible?

Postby panic » Fri Nov 11, 2022 7:52 pm

From my decades of employment as a Clerk of the Supreme Court of New York County, permit me to disagree.
"It's a civil matter" is used when the effect desired is to get rid of the applicant.
Civil matters do not include perpetration of a criminal act as an element of the dispute. By their definition, a bank robbery is a civil matter (an argument over a thing of value).

Harley-Davidsons have no legal identification prior to 1970 except the VIN on the case (the belly numbers* are no longer on file in most cases, and removing or altering them invokes no penalty).
That casting is the entire vehicle with the VIN, and a mere object, like a carburetor, without. It's not possible to prove legal ownership of a blank case because they're all identical*.
Intentionally causing an engine case, to which you have no right of possession (it either has no VIN, or a VIN without a title which you destroyed), to be identified as your property by stamping the VIN on it is illegal.
Misrepresenting it to another person for sale purposes is called "fraud in the inducement", also illegal.

It's not that complicated.
The answer is no.
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Re: Are Duplicate K Model Engine Numbers Possible?

Postby BigDen » Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:16 pm

Hoping to have H-D build sheets confirm the belly number for my 1953 K Model, I have chased down the answer for what historical build information is available from Harley Davidson. I contacted H-D Customer Service, and wrote directly to H-D Headquarters, and the answer I received was:

“We have very limited build information for the 1953 K model motorcycle. I have listed below the information we have on record.
Build info for 1953 H-D K-model bike.
According to the "Legend Begins", in 1953, Harley-Davidson produced 1,723 of the K model and the total production of motorcycles for the year 1953 was 12,431.”

Since Ferrous_Head was able to get the build date for his 1962 XLB, I continued to seek out what build records H-D has in its archives. I replied to H-D Customer Service and asked what build records H-D maintains and do they still have a Research Officer. H-D Customer Service replied:

“The Motor Company does keep historical information at the H-D Museum however, we do not have a Research Officer or department.”

I contacted Bill Jackson, Manager of Archives and Heritage Services at Harley-Davidson Motor Co / Harley-Davidson Museum, through LinkedIn, and relayed Ferrous_Head’s account of getting the build date for his 1962 XLB and asked what build information the museum has in its archives. I promptly received the following reply from Bill Jackson.

“1962 is right at the cutoff point where customer service's records start to show information more than just the build numbers. Prior to that time, all H-D has is the number built. Our source shows that 1,723 K model bikes were built for 1953.”

While this doesn’t help me with information on my 1953 K Model, I wanted to post this here so others on the forum will know what information H-D has in its archives.

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