1969 XLCH spark control spiral

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Re: 1969 XLCH spark control spiral

Postby hennesse » Sun Sep 20, 2015 3:27 pm

OK, guys, let me see if I've got this right. Some of this is guesswork, as I know nothing about the XLHs.

THROTTLE
1952-1969 all models - turning the right grip "in" (counter-clockwise as you're sitting on the bike) lengthens the cable, which opens the throttle. This pushes the K/KH carb rearward, and the XL carb to the right. The 56220-53 sleeve was used on the right handlebar.


ADVANCE/RETARD
1952-1956 K and KH - had a circuit breaker (timer). The advance/retard cable ran between the cylinders and exited in front of the circuit breaker. The timer advance/retard "peg" is near the front of the timer. Using the 56220-53 sleeve on the left handlebar, twisting the left grip "in" (clockwise as you're sitting on the bike) shortens the cable, turning the circuit breaker clockwise (looking down) - advancing the timing.

1957 XL, 1958-1964 XLH - had a circuit breaker (timer). The advance/retard cable ran between the motor and the front downtube, and clamped on the top generator bolt along with the horn - in front of the circuit breaker. The timer advance/retard "peg" is near the front of the timer. Using the 56220-53 sleeve on the left handlebar, twisting the left grip "in" (clockwise as you're sitting on the bike) shortens the cable, turning the circuit breaker clockwise (looking down) - advancing the timing.

1958 XLC/XLCH - the photo in The Legend Begins show the 1958 XLC/XLCH with the magneto's plug wires at the front. Later XLCHs have the magneto's plug wires at the rear. I'm not sure, but I think the 1958 magneto is fixed.

1959-1964 XLCH - used a fixed magneto - so there is no advance/retard.

1965-1969 XLH used an automatic advance circuit breaker, so there is no advance/retard.

1965-1969 XLCH - had an adjustable magneto. The advance/retard cable now runs along the left side of the engine, then turns and clamps under the oil tank - behind the magneto, and the magneto advance/retard "peg" is now at the rear of the magneto. Turning the left grip "in" would turn the magneto the wrong direction. So Harley used the 56220-58 sleeve on the left handlebar, and it has a spiral groove cut in the opposite direction as the -53 sleeve. Now everything works normally - as you accelerate, you turn both grips "in", opening the throttle and advancing the magneto.

Notes:
Why does the 56220-58 sleeve have a -58 part number? Perhaps the 1958 XLC/XLCH did have an adjustable mag. Or maybe they designed it for 1958, but never used it until 1965. Or maybe it was for the XLR. Who knows? Maybe DaveC?

Question:
What keeps the left grip from turning on the bikes with no advance/retard?
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Re: 1969 XLCH spark control spiral

Postby thefrenchowl » Sun Sep 20, 2015 4:35 pm

LOL... Retard is for sissies that try to start a proper motorcycle.

Engines don't usually need retard to start. Your leg needs it...

KR, XLR and early CH don't have retard. When fitted with proper carburettor, ie a DC Linkert, they start no problem with full advance.

Tillies are another problem and why guys think Sporsters need 20 kicks to start...

Advance retard on Fairbanks Morse CH came in 1962, without tacho drive, which makes it look from afar as a full advance one.

Control cable outer sleeve clamps underneath rear cylinder rear right base nut.

New base for tacho drive in 1965...

Patrick
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Re: 1969 XLCH spark control spiral

Postby mikeslemmon » Sun Sep 20, 2015 4:50 pm

`58 throttle sleeve could be for servicer still a weird part #
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Re: 1969 XLCH spark control spiral

Postby dr dick » Sun Sep 20, 2015 8:03 pm

dave:
nice accurate post.
if a guy visualizes the spiral groove in the grip as if it was a thread inside a nut:
-53 is a right hand thread
-58 is a left hand.

simply put
53-71 use the -53 on the throttle
72 & 73 use -58 on throttle

all 53 to 64 battery bikes use -53 on timer side.
65 to 69 mag bikes use -58 on timer side.

as to your question of left grip rotation
parts book say:
58-61 used a spacer 56227-53 instead of spring 56216-53.
when tightening screw 56288 -53 on left side, this spacer renders the grip immobile.
(ive seen a few 62's that still used the spacer. does your 62 have a grip screw in the left bar? if so it has the spacer.)

62-64 ch had new design left bar that deleted the used of spiral and its immobility spacer.
this new bar didnt use screw 56288 -53 on left side.




patrick:
us sissies with tin cover motors bigger than a measly 76 inches will dispute your assertion that fixed timing is adequate.
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Re: 1969 XLCH spark control spiral

Postby sportsterpaul » Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:37 am

Dr Dick, your knowledge never ceases to amaze me. And Dave, that is just a fantastic explanation. We should mention the 1952 takes a handlebar with the slot at the end, and does not use these twist grips, but a different set. I see it was also offered on the 1953, but who knows how many bikes were built with it. I have heard it called "the Panhead setup."

Unlike Dave, my 1962 was never a coherent bike, I put it together from a warehouse full of parts. It must have both -53 and -58 spirals since both sides are "pull". I would then conclude from your write-up that I have a 65-1969 mag bike handlebar, only the grips have been flipped, so the throttle is pull, and so is the spark advance side.

That the two mag adjustment setups are to provide for the tach drive in the later mag base makes perfect sense. I know I should be able to figure this out from the parts book, but Dr Dick and Patrick and Dave make it much easier, since you explain why they did something, so it is easier to figure out.

Here is a little chart that restates what Dave and Dr Dick have explained:
.........LH...LH mag.....RH throttle
1953.. -53....NA ........-53
1958.. -53...spacer.....-53
1962.. -53... none.......-53
1965.. none.. -58........-53
1970.. none.. NA........-53
1972.. none.. NA........-58
1974.. none.. NA........external

I assume the "none" LH bar used on the 62 to 64 mag bikes was what they then mounted on the 1965 to 73 XLH circuit breaker bike.

I think I got this picture labeled right---
K-model_Sportster_Thottlle-spark-advance-grips.JPG
K-model_Sportster_Thottlle-spark-advance-grips.JPG (137.71 KiB) Viewed 23544 times


I too agree that a bike needs variable spark. An engine gets best mileage when you advance just to the point of pinging. This will change depending on the quality of the gas, and its octane. So when you do that, you really can get a kick-back that hurts. With variable spark, you can safely kick the bike, and then get it out of retard once it starts so you don't burn a valve and you do get the best performance. Heck, even an electric start Iron Sportster is a long way from sissy.

Once California changed the gas (MBTE) I could not start my mag bike even with variable spark, in less than 15 kicks. With a Keihin carb. Maybe down here in hot Florida it might start easier. It was single-kick when it was warm. Yes, I flashed it. Yes I tried new points and condenser. Yes I gapped the spark plugs perfectly. I ripped out the mag and put in a circuit breaker. Two kicks, consistently and fist kick every now and then. I love it. The only mag that would work in California was that auto-advance one Mallory sold for 600 bucks. Sorry, I don't have the budget. Any time anyone tells me they can start a mag bike in two kicks I feel that yeah, it might have happened once, but 15 to 30 is more likely the norm. Maybe the gas is better outside of Cali.

Oh, I found a bag of Tillotson "bowl" gaskets, if anyone wants them, I can afford the 42 cent stamp to send them to you.
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Re: 1969 XLCH spark control spiral

Postby thefrenchowl » Mon Sep 21, 2015 2:58 am

"Bikes that won't kick start" problems split as 10% ignition and 90% carburator/head work needed...
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Re: 1969 XLCH spark control spiral

Postby hennesse » Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:17 am

dr dick wrote:as to your question of left grip rotation
parts book say:
58-61 used a spacer 56227-53 instead of spring 56216-53.
when tightening screw 56288 -53 on left side, this spacer renders the grip immobile.
(ive seen a few 62's that still used the spacer. does your 62 have a grip screw in the left bar? if so it has the spacer.)


Thanks Dr. Dick - for the info on the "immobility spacer". I couldn't figure what that spacer was for. My bike does not have a grip screw on the left bar.
Thanks SportsterPaul - those photos of the sleeves sure tell the story!

TheFrenchOwl is correct about changes occurring on the magneto in 1962 ( actually "Late 1962"). Here's what changed:

Housing - the housing now has a boss for the new key switch.
Rotor - the rotor now has a gear spiral in the shaft which would drive the tachometer.
Drive Housing - the drive housing has a boss for the tachometer drive, and a provision for advance/retard.

The key switch appears to be standard for late 1962 - 1969.
The drive housing has a plug in the tachometer boss, since the tachometer was optional.
Late 1962-1964 XLCH used an optional 92050-62 Tachometer Kit. The tach mounted in front of the speedo, and this was a simple add-on.
1965-1969 had optional side-by-side speedo/tachs. In 1965-1966 the instruments were in front of the handlebars, 1967-1969 behind the handlebars. Not sure which years were XLCH-only and which were XLH and XLCH. I'll bet that most 1965-1969 bikes were shipped with the speedo/tach option.

The late-1962 -up drive housing did allow for advance/retard movement, but I don't think Harley implemented this during Late-1962 - 1964. However, you could add what I think is an aftermarket part shown below. You remove the two allen screws at the back of the mag (they hold the coil in place), and substitute this. The drive housing-to-adapter bolt can be left just loose enough to allow rotating the mag, but tight enough to hold it in place while riding.
DMH_006041.jpg
Accessory? Advance/retard for Late-62 to 64
DMH_006041.jpg (41.53 KiB) Viewed 23538 times


In 1965, they replaced the adapter plate with a two-piece unit that allowed free-er movement, added the arm to allow the cable to attach at the rear of the mag (why?), and re-instituted the moving left handlebar grip.


SAFETY GAP
An interesting item is the magneto Safety Gap - which was probably used from 1958 through Early-1964. It consists of the 29566-55 Spring Plate, Safety Gap, and the 29530-55 Cover. You can see the Spring Plate in the Parts Catalogs, but you can't see the difference between the -55 and -55A Covers. I'll have to dig out my spare -55 and -55A Covers, photograph them, and post more info about this later.
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Re: 1969 XLCH spark control spiral

Postby Hammie13 » Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:25 am

WoW!!! This stuff keeps getting deeper!!!!! Now I know what all those parts I got with the old F/M Mag are for! I'm going to go with a fixed mag and a Linkert,as My ol' Knuckle fires right up with the big brass mixer just fine. I'll be listing some goodies on fee-bay soon,and I'll put a link in here for the mag parts if anyone needs them.
I have a bunch of old DH-49 turn signal lights with ginny lenses I'll be listing also,and I have a set of sportster rear mounting plates if anyone wants to light up their bike.
I'm going to run a full set on my K bobber,along with disc brakes,just because I'm spoiled,and hate having to start braking a mile ahead of the stop signs. Might as well bring the ol' flattie into the 70's!
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Re: 1969 XLCH spark control spiral

Postby EKHKHK56 » Mon Sep 21, 2015 12:45 pm

While on the subject, in 1953 the K received a faster acting throttle. I think this was all done at the Throttle Lever Arm #27267-49. I noticed two styles on my early M-53s. (The 56 & 59 Spare Parts Books show this same number arm 52 through 56 however) The faster acting part was done with an arm of different geometry at the carb. Erik
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Re: 1969 XLCH spark control spiral

Postby EKHKHK56 » Mon Sep 21, 2015 12:52 pm

On starting procedures, with the long stroke KHK, after two primer strokes & with retarded ignition or not you want to stroke the engine up to just BTDC before turning ignition on and starting. This wll do more to avoid kick backs than a new govt policy. You can feel the compression bulding when you wind it up. Erik
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